>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> IF NEGOTIATIONS ARE TO OCCUR, IT IS WRONG AND FOOLISH TO PREDETERMINE THEIR OUTCOME.

>> HIGH-STAKES DIPLOMACY IN GENEVA AS TALKS BETWEEN THE U. S. AND IRAN RESUME AND TENSIONS GROW OVER THE AMERICAN BUILD-UP IN THE REGION.

I SPEAK TO WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER U. S. DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE, WHO HELPED NEGOTIATE THE 2015 NUCLEAR DEAL.

> >> THEN -- >> WE HAVE TO BE AN INDEPENDENT EUROPE.

>> EUROPE HASN'T DONE ENOUGH IN ITS OWN DEFENSE AND SECURITY FOR MANY YEARS.

>> A TRANS-ATLANTIC TURNING POINT.

AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE EUROPEAN LEADERS SIGNALING A NEW STRATEGY.

CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT URSULA VON DER LEYEN AND BRITISH PRIME MINISTER KEIR STARMER ON SECURITY, UKRAINE, AND WHETHER EUROPE IS READY TO STAND ON ITS OWN.

> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> WHAT HAPPENS IN OUR PART OF THE WORLD, IN THE U. S. , AFFECTS ANTARCTICA.

AND ANTARCTICA AFFECTS US.

>> FROM THE EDGE OF ANTARCTICA SCIENTIST DAVID HOLLAND JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN FROM A RESEARCH SHIP STUDYING RAPIDLY MELTING GLACIERS AND WHAT THEIR COLLAPSE COULD MEAN FOR GLOBAL SEA LEVELS.

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>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IT'S A DAY OF DUAL DIPLOMACY IN THE GENEVA AREA AS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SPECIAL ENVOY STEVE WITKOFF AND HIS SON-IN- LAW JARED KUSHNER ATTEMPT TO NEGOTIATE WITH IRAN TO AVERT A WIDER WAR.

ALSO ON THE AGENDA, ATTEMPTING TO END RUSSIA'S WAR ON UKRAINE AS IT APPROACHES ITS FIFTH YEAR.

IRAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER DESCRIBES THE TALKS AS SERIOUS AND POSITIVE AS IT SEEKS AN END TO SANCTIONS THAT HAVE CRIPPLED ITS ECONOMY.

>> Translator: WE WERE ABLE TO REACH A GENERAL AGREEMENT ON A SERIES OF GUIDING PRINCIPLES.

WE WILL MOVE BASED ON THOSE PRINCIPLES AND ENTER INTO THE TEXT OF A POSSIBLE AGREEMENT.

>> THE UNITED STATES SAYS PROGRESS WAS MADE BUT DETAILS NEED TO BE DISCUSSED AND THAT IRAN WILL COME BACK WITH PROPOSALS IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS.

NOW, ALL OF THIS HAPPENING AS AMERICAN MILITARY ASSETS BUILD UP IN THE REGION.

THE TALKS COME 40 DAYS SINCE THE PEAK OF IRAN'S BRUTAL CRACKDOWN ON PROTESTERS THAT KILLED THOUSANDS.

AND ON THE UKRAINE FILE WITKOFF AND KUSHNER JOIN TRILATERAL NEGOTIATIONS OVER ENDING THE WAR.

THOSE TALKS COME AS RUSSIA UNLEASHED A WAVE OF ATTACKS ON UKRAINE OVERNIGHT INTO TUESDAY, KILLING AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE.

SO COULD THESE TALKS AVERT A WIDER WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND END EUROPE'S DEADLIEST CONFLICT SINCE WORLD WAR II?

WENDY SHERMAN IS A FORMER U. S. DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE WHO NEGOTIATED THE 2015 NUCLEAR DEAL WITH IRAN, AND SHE JOINS US NOW BE LIVE FROM SARASOTA, FLORIDA.

WENDY, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO WE HEARD THERE FROM THE IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER SAYING THAT THEY'VE REACHED AN UNDERSTANDING ON THE MAIN PRINCIPLES WITH THE UNITED STATES AND DETAILS WILL BE NOW SHARED OVER THE NEXT TWO WEEKS.

IRANIAN PRESIDENT PEZ HE SHALLKYIAN JUST CAME OUT AND SAID TEHRAN WILL NEVER ABANDON, QUOTE, ITS PEACEFUL NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

SO HOW MUCH DO YOU READ INTO THESE STATEMENTS?

>> I READ SORT OF A HOLDING PATTERN IN MANY WAYS, BIANNA.

I THINK THAT WHAT WE HEARD TODAY IS THAT THEY MAY HAVE AGREED ON AN AGENDA OF ITEMS THAT NEED TO BE RESOLVED AND A PROCESS FOR DRAFTING SOME PROPOSALS TO SHARE WITH EACH OTHER BUT I WOULD ALSO REMIND ALL OF US OF TWO REALLY CRITICAL FACTS.

ONE, JUNE 19th, 2025 PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IN TWO WEEKS I'LL KNOW WHETHER WE NEED TO TAKE ACTION OR NOT WITH IRAN, AND THEN THREE DAYS LATER WE HAD OPERATION HAMMER.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY WE'RE ABOUT TO GO TO WAR.

BUT IT IS TO SAY THAT THOSE TWO WEEKS TEND TO SHOW UP OFTEN IN NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND OTHERS AROUND THE WORLD AND INCLUDING DOMESTICALLY WITH THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS.

SECOND IMPORTANT FACT IS THAT THE CARRIER GROUP GERALD FORD IS MAKING ITS WAY TO THE MIDDLE EAST BUT IT'S NOT THERE YET.

AND IF PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES DECIDE THAT HE'S GOING TO TAKE MILITARY ACTION YOU WANT TO HAVE TWO CARRIER STRIKE GROUPS IN THE REGION, NOT JUST THE ONE THAT IS THERE NOW.

ALL OF THIS BEING SAID, CERTAINLY I HOPE THAT DIPLOMACY CONTINUES, THAT WE DO NOT TAKE MILITARY ACTION, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK WE KNOW WHAT THE OUTCOME WOULD BE IF MILITARY ACTION -- YES, WE ARE INCREDIBLY POWERFUL.

YES, OUR MILITARY IS BETTER THAN ANYONE'S IN THE WORLD.

BUT IRAN DOES HAVE MISSILES.

IRAN CAN STRIKE OUR TROOPS.

IRAN CAN STRIKE AMERICAN CITIZENS IN THE REGION, CAN STRIKE ISRAEL, CAN STRIKE PARTNERS IN THE GULF, CAN CREATE CHAOS ON THE OIL MARKETS, AND WE DON'T KNOW EVEN IF SOMEHOW IRAN'S LEADERSHIP WAS DECAPITATED, A HORRIBLE LEADERSHIP AS YOU POINTED OUT, HAVING KILLED MANY OF ITS OWN CITIZENS AFTER PROTESTS, OR DURING PROTESTS, WE DON'T KNOW AS SECRETARY RUBIO HIMSELF SAID IN SENATE TESTIMONY, WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WOULD COME NEXT.

>> YEAH.

THOUSANDS IF NOT TENS OF THOUSANDS KILLED ROUGHLY A MONTH AGO IN THOSE PROTESTS.

YOU MENTIONED THE CARRIER STRIKE GROUP THE "USS GERALD R. FORD" JOINING THE "LINCOLN. "

AND NOW THAT WOULD BE NINE OTHER WARSHIPS.

IN TOTAL THAT WOULD BE ON IRAN'S COAST.

HERE'S HOW THE AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI RESPONDED TO THIS.

>> Translator: IT SEEMS TO THEM THAT THE U. S. PRESIDENT KEEPS SAYING THIS.

THE U. S. ARMY IS THE STRONGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD.

THE STRONGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD MAY SOMETIMES GET SLAPPED SO HARD THAT IT CANNOT STAND UP STRAIGHT.

THEY KEEP SAYING WE'VE SENT AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER TOWARD IRAN.

VERY WELL.

AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER IS CERTAINLY A DANGEROUS PIECE OF EQUIPMENT.

BUT MORE DANGEROUS THAN THE CARRIER IS THE WEAPON THAT CAN SEND THAT CARRIER TOWARDS THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA.

>> NOW, THAT IS SIMILAR LANGUAGE THAT WE HEARD FROM KHAMENEI PRIOR TO THE STRIKES BACK IN JUNE, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THAT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES, SEVERE CONSEQUENCES IF THERE IS NO DEAL IN THESE CURRENT TALKS.

DOES THAT TYPE OF MILITARY PRESSURE STRENGTHEN U. S. LEVERAGE AT THE TABLE WITH ARACHI, A MAN YOU'VE NEGOTIATED WITH AND KNOW QUITE WELL, OR DOES THAT MAKE HIS POSITION EVEN MORE TENUOUS GIVEN THAT HE'S NOT THE ULTIMATE DECISION MAKER HERE?

>> I'D SAY IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH.

NO NEGOTIATION OF THIS NATURE IS SUCCESSFUL WITHOUT A CREDIBLE THREAT OF FORCE.

AND WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DOING IS SHOWING THAT IN FACT THERE IS A VERY CREDIBLE THREAT OF FORCE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, MANY OF OUR PARTNERS AND ALLIES IN THE REGION ARE QUITE CONCERNED THAT IF WE ATTACK OR ATTACK WITH ISRAEL OR BACK ISRAEL UP IF IT ATTACKS, THAT THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES FOR ALL OF THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES.

WE'VE SEEN OIL MARKETS TODAY RESPOND POSITIVELY TO THE FACT THAT THESE NEGOTIATIONS DIDN'T FALL APART TODAY.

AND WE HAVE ALSO SEEN ON THE OTHER SIDE IRAN SHOWING IT HAS MILITARY POWER BY DOING DRILLS IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, WHICH IS VERY CRITICAL FOR SHIPPING, VERY CRITICAL FOR OIL DELIVERIES, VERY CRITICAL FOR GLOBAL MARKETS.

AND SO EVERYBODY'S DOING POSTURING AROUND USE OF FORCE.

THE REALITY IS THIS IS NOT A NEGOTIATION AMONG EQUALS.

WE ARE TRYING TO GET IRAN TO DO SOMETHING TO MAKE THE WORLD SAFER, TO ENSURE THEY NEVER HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON WHICH WE ALL AGREE IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL.

BUT IRAN HAS A WAY OF BEING ABLE TO DEAL WITH THINGS ASYMMETRICALLY, AS WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST, AND EVEN THOUGH THEIR PROXY FORCES IN THE REGION HAVE BEEN WEAKENED BY ACTIONS BY ISRAEL AND BY US THE FACT REMAINS THEY STILL HAVE ASYMMETRIC ABILITIES TO MAKE EVERYBODY'S LIFE HELL.

>> AND IF WE THINK BACK TO THOSE STRIKES BACK IN JUNE, IRAN HAS STILL DENIED THE IAEA ACCESS TO THOSE SITES.

ARAGHCHI MET WITH RAFAEL GROSSI JUST YESTERDAY.

AND IF THE UNITED STATES IS DEMANDING ZERO ENRICHMENT HERE AND, AGAIN, NOT HAVING VERIFICATION OF ON-SITE ACCESS AND IRAN IS SAYING THEY WILL NEFF GIVE UP WHAT THEY CALL A PEACEFUL NUCLEAR PROGRAM, HOW CAN YOU COME TO ANY SORT OF AGREEMENT ULTIMATELY?

I KNOW YOU MENTIONED POSTURING.

OIL MARKETS SEEM TO BE CALMED DOWN A BIT BY WHAT WE HEARD TODAY.

BUT ARE WE JUST WAITING OR AVOIDING THE INEVITABLE THAT COULD COME IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS?

>> I THINK THAT COULD COME IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.

BUT WITH A GREAT COST FOR EVERYONE INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES IN MY VIEW, WITHOUT A CERTAIN OUTCOME THAT WE KNOW WOULD OCCUR.

LOOK, THE FACT REMAINS THAT ALTHOUGH IRAN IS NOT REALLY THE DEMANDEUR HERE, THE UNITED STATES IS, THE REST OF THE WORLD IS, THAT IRAN NEVER HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON, IRAN REALLY --THEIR ENTIRE CULTURE IS ABOUT RESILIENCE AND RESISTANCE.

THAT'S WHAT THE 1979 REVOLUTION WAS ABOUT.

AND INDEED THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BACK AWAY.

THEY WANT, AS WE KEEP HEARING FROM ARAGHCHI, WHO IS A VERY SKILLED COMMUNICATOR, VERY SKILLED NEGOTIATOR, THAT IRAN WILL NOT SUBMIT TO THREATS.

THERE IS A REAL NEED FOR IRAN TO FEEL THAT IT HAS DIGNITY AS A NATION AND AS A COUNTRY THAT CAN SURVIVE.

I UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT NONETHELESS, THIS IS A THEOCRACY THAT JUST MURDERED THOUSANDS OF ITS CITIZENS.

>> THE DEADLIEST UNREST IN IRAN'S MODERN HISTORY.

THAT IS THE CONSENSUS OF WHAT THIS REGIME UNLEASHED ON ITS OWN PEOPLE.

AMONG EXPERTS AND HISTORIANS JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO.

SO IF YOU TAKE PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION AND PUT THAT ASIDE, BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH HERE THAT HE'S MADE THREATS BEFORE BUT HE'S LIVED UP TO THEM IN WAYS THAT PREVIOUS U. S. ADMINISTRATIONS JUST HAVEN'T.

YOU PUT THAT ASIDE.

THERE'S ALSO THE QUESTION OF CREDIBILITY WITHIN IRAN ITSELF AND APPROVAL OF THIS REGIME IN A WAY THAT PERHAPS WASN'T AT STAKE BACK IN 2015 WHEN YOU WERE NEGOTIATING.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU HEAR FROM THESE PROTESTERS, YOU TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT THAT THOSE ATROCITIES AND MASS KILLINGS HAD ON THE COUNTRY THAT IS STILL REELING FROM THEM, THEY ARE SAYING THAT --A BETTER NUCLEAR DEAL IS NOT WHAT THEY TOOK TO THE STREETS FOR.

SO ARE WE ULTIMATELY TALKING ABOUT A REGIME THAT HAS LOST LEGITIMACY WITH ITS OWN PEOPLE?

>> I THINK IT'S A MIXED BAG, UNFORTUNATELY, STILL BECAUSE THE REGIME HAS TREMENDOUS PROPAGANDA POWER WITHIN THE COUNTRY.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF IRANIANS ARE UNDER THE AGE OF 35.

THEY DO NOT SEE AN ECONOMIC FUTURE FOR THEMSELVES.

PART OF THE REASON WHY THE REGIME WAS SO HORRIFYINGLY MURDEROUS DURING THIS LAST PROTEST IS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT IN FACT THE PROTESTS COULD TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY.

THE IRGC, THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTIONARY GUARD CORPS, REALLY OWNS THE ECONOMY OF IRAN IN MANY WAYS.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GIVE IT UP EASILY.

YES, IT IS A THEOCRACY BUT WITH ENORMOUS POWER OF ITS MILITARY.

SO WE HAVE A LOT TO UNPACK HERE.

LOOK, I DON'T THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS TO RUSH TO WAR.

EVEN THOUGH EVEN SOME OF HIS MAGA SUPPORTERS WHO WANTED AN AMERICA FIRST AGENDA AND DIDN'T WANT TO SEE AMERICANS AT WAR ARE BACKING OFF OF THAT A LITTLE BIT AND HAVE SUPPORTED PRESIDENT TRUMP IN SOME OF THE ACTIONS HE'S TAKEN IN VENEZUELA.

I'M NOT SURE THEY SUPPORT WHAT HE'S DOING IN UKRAINE, AND WE CAN GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS IT.

BUT THE FACT IS THAT THE PRESIDENT MAY FIND HIMSELF UP AGAINST A WALL AS WE'RE HEADING TOWARD THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS, AND I DON'T THINK THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WANTS TO SEE AMERICAN CITIZENS, AMERICAN TROOPS DEAD ON A BATTLEFIELD WITH IRAN, NOR DO THEY WANT TO SEE THE PRICE OF OIL GO SKY HIGH SO THAT ELECTRICITY COSTS ARE EVEN GREATER THAN THEY ARE TODAY.

THERE IS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT AT STAKE HERE, INCLUDING OF COURSE THE FUTURE FOR THE PEOPLE OF IRAN.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT UKRAINE BECAUSE THE COMMON THEME HERE IS NOT THAT THESE TALKS ARE JUST TAKING PLACE IN THE SAME CITY.

THEY ARE BEING MEDIATED BY THE SAME U. S. OFFICIALS.

AND THAT IS STEVE WITKOFF AND JARED KUSHNER.

THESE ARE NOT CAREER DIPLOMATS.

BUT THEY DO HAVE THE SUPPORT AND THE SAY OF PRESIDENT TRUMP WHEN THEY GO TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE HERE.

THE TABLE LOOKS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THE ONE YOU SAT AT IN 2015.

THERE WERE CAREER DIPLOMATS, NUCLEAR PHYSICISTS.

BUT JUST TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE CONCERNS AND PERHAPS, I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANY OPTIMISM THAT YOU SEE, IN THEIR PERSPECTIVE COMING TO THE TABLE NOW AND WHAT THEY COULD BRING THAT YOUR NEGOTIATING TEAM COULD NOT.

WE CAN START WITH IRAN, AND THEN I DO WANT TO GET TO UKRAINE AS WELL.

>> I THINK IT IS QUITE UNUSUAL AND QUITE DIFFICULT FOR THE SAME TWO NEGOTIATORS, WITKOFF AND KUSHNER, TO DO UKRAINE, IRAN, AND GAZA ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

YES, THERE ARE SOME OF THE SAME COUNTRIES INVOLVED IN THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

MAYBE THERE'S SOME LEVERAGE OPPORTUNITIES AMONGST THE THREE.

BUT NONETHELESS IT IS IN MY VIEW INSANE TO HAVE THESE TWO TRY TO DO ALL OF THAT ALL AT ONCE.

YES, THEY ARE CAPABLE OBVIOUSLY BUSINESSMEN, BUT THAT MAKES ME CONCERNED BECAUSE IT IS A VERY TRANSACTIONAL APPROACH.

WE HAVE SEEN IT BEING USED TO FEATHER THE NEST OF THE WITKOFF, KUSHNER AND TRUMP FAMILIES IN TERMS OF THEIR OWN PERSONAL FINANCES.

SO THIS IS VERY COMPLICATED.

NOT ONLY ARE THESE NOT PROFESSIONAL NEGOTIATORS OR DIPLOMATS.

I WAS I APOLITICAL APPOINTEE.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN VETTED, HAVE NOT BEEN CONFIRMED, DON'T DO ALL THE NECESSARY FINANCIAL DISCLOSURES.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT POSITION JARED KUSHNER HAS FORMALLY WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION.

BUT NOT ONLY DON'T YOU HAVE ALL THE EXPERTS NECESSARY AT THE TABLE, THOUGH I WAS GLAD TO SEE GROSSI OF THE INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCY WAS INVOLVED IN THESE DISCUSSIONS, BUT YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE THE EUROPEANS AT THE TABLE, YOU DON'T HAVE RUSSIA AND CHINA AT THE TABLE, WHICH WE DID.

AND THE REASON THAT MADE OUR NEGOTIATION MORE COMPLICATED, YES, BUT IT ALSO MEANT THAT WE HAD THE ENTIRE WORLD BEHIND WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE ANY LONGER.

THIS IS REALLY A BILATERAL NEGOTIATION BETWEEN THE U. S. AND IRAN.

THE U. S. WITH RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

OTHERS DON'T SIT AT THE TABLE.

MAYBE NEAR THE TABLE, AS WE'VE SEEN WITH ISRAEL AND THE GULF IN MANY OF THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

BUT IT'S QUITE A DIFFERENT SETUP.

WE ARE NOT RETURNING TO 2015.

WE ARE NOT RETURNING TO THE JCPOA.

LIFE HAS MOVED ON.

BUT THESE GUYS HAVE A LOT ON THEIR PLATE AND DON'T HAVE THE HISTORY, THE KNOWLEDGE, THE TEAM THAT'S NECESSARY.

NO GREAT NEGOTIATION EVER HAPPENS BECAUSE OF ONE PERSON.

>> YEAH.

AND OF COURSE YOU KNOW THEIR ARGUMENT IS THAT YOUR PLAN, THE WAY YOU NEGOTIATED UNDER YOUR ADMINISTRATION, DIDN'T WORK, SO WHY NOT TRY THEIRS.

BUT WHAT IS INTERESTING IS ALSO BOTH IRAN AND RUSSIA NOW AND EVEN UKRAINE DANGLING ECONOMIC TIES, BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE UNITED STATES IN THEIR RESPECTIVE COUNTRIES AS A WAY TO SEEK FAVOR WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION AND COME TO TERMS WITH A DEAL.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT WE SAW OVER THESE TRILATERAL TALKS OVER THE WAR WITH UKRAINE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING UKRAINE NEEDS TO GET MOVING.

ONCE AGAIN THE PRESSURE SEEMS TO BE DIRECTED MOSTLY IF NOT ALL ON UKRAINE AND YOU HAVE VLADIMIR MEDINSKI, WHO IS A HARD-LINER HERE, OVERSEEING AND SPEAKING FOR THE RUSSIANS AS THESE TALKS REALLY FOCUSED ON TERRITORIAL GAIN AND CONTROL.

WHAT POSITION DOES THAT LEAVE UKRAINE IN AS THE PRESIDENT KEEPS SQUEEZING BOTH SIDES BUT MOSTLY UKRAINE INTO AGREEING TO A DEAL SOON?

>> BIANNA, I THINK YOU'RE QUITE GENEROUS TO SAY THAT BOTH SIDES HAVE BEEN SQUEEZED.

ALTHOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN SOME ACTIONS REGARDING RUSSIA IN TERMS OF OIL SANCTIONS AROUND THE WORLD, NONETHELESS ALL THE PRESSURE FOR THE MOST PART HAS BEEN ON ZELENSKYY AND ON UKRAINE, WHICH IS OUTRAGEOUS GIVEN THAT RUSSIA INTERVENED AND HORRIFICALLY BEGAN A WAR WITH A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY WHOSE TERRITORY SHOULD BE RESPECT ED AND WHO HAS A RIGHT TO MAKE ITS OWN POLITICAL FUTURE.

I THINK THAT YES, THERE'S DISCUSSION OF TERRITORY.

ZELENSKYY HAS LOOKED TO SEE WHETHER ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, PERHAPS HAVING A DEMILITARIZED ZONE IN SOME OF THE CONTENTIOUS AREAS IN DONETSK AND HAVING A WAY FORWARD THAT GIVES RUSSIA SOMETHING BUT REALLY DOESN'T TURN OVER TERRITORY IN ANY SUBSTANTIAL WAY FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME TO RUSSIA.

I THINK ALL OF EUROPE KNOWS THAT LOTS MORE COULD HAPPEN IF PUTIN FEELS HE'S WON THIS WAR.

>> AND RUSSIA SHOWING HOW SERIOUS OR NOT SERIOUS IT IS BY LAUNCHING 400 DRONES JUST HOURS BEFORE THESE TALKS BEGAN.

WENDY SHERMAN, IT IS REALLY GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

> >> AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE THIS PAST WEEKEND ALL EYES WERE ON U. S. SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO, WHOSE SPEECH PROVED TO BE MORE DIPLOMATIC THAN VICE PRESIDENT J. D. VANCE ONE YEAR AGO.

BUT THE SUBSTANCE, WELL, THAT WAS MUCH THE SAME.

AND EUROPE SEEMS TO BE ABSORBING A STARK NEW REALITY, A LESS PREDICTABLE UNITED STATES AND A GROWING NEED TO STAND ON ITS OWN.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT URSULA VON DER LEYEN AND BRITISH PRIME MINISTER KEIR STARMER ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS AS WAR CONTINUES TO RAGE THEIR CONTINENT.

>> FIRST I WANT TO ASK YOU THERE WERE A COUPLE OF APPLAUSE LINES FOR SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO.

HE SAID IT'S NEITHER OUR WISH NOR OUR GOAL TO DESTROY THE TRANS- ATLANTIC ALLIANCE.

I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU FEEL CONVINCED BY THAT, WHETHER YOU FEEL THAT THE FEATHERS ARE BEING, YOU KNOW, UNRUFFLED AFTER LAST YEAR'S BROADSIDE, WHICH WAS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE FROM THE AMERICAN SPEAKER, VICE PRESIDENT J. D. VANCE.

>> I WAS VERY MUCH REASSURED BY THE SPEECH OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE.

WE KNOW HIM.

HE'S A GOOD FRIEND, A STRONG ALLY.

INDEED THIS WAS FOR ME AND REASSURING.

WE KNOW IN THE ADMINISTRATION SOME HAVE A HARSHER TONE ON THESE TOPICS BUT THE SECRETARY OF STATE WAS VERY CLEAR.

HE SAID WE WANT A STRONG EUROPE IN THE ALLIANCE.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE WORKING FOR INTENSIVELY IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

WE HAVE TO BE AN INDEPENDENT EUROPE, NOT A EUROPE THAT IS LEANING ON SOMEONE BUT A EUROPE THAT IS GOING FORWARD WITH FRIENDS AND ALLIES TOGETHER FACING THE CHALLENGES THAT ARE OUT THERE.

>> I THOUGHT THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S SPEECH WAS CONSISTENT WITH THE ARGUMENT THAT URSULA MADE IN HER REMARKS A MOMENT AGO AND THE ARGUMENT I'M MAKING.

I THINK IT'S REALLY CLEAR, THOUGH, THAT WE SHOULDN'T GET IN THE WARM BATH OF COMPLACENCY AND THINK THAT THEREFORE ALL WE'RE REALLY DOING IS REASSERTING THE CONTINUATION OF WHAT WE'VE HAD FOR THE LAST 80 YEARS.

THAT WOULD BE A MISTAKE.

AND IT WOULD BE A PARTICULAR MISTAKE FOR EUROPE BECAUSE MY STRONG VIEW IS THAT EUROPE HASN'T DONE ENOUGH IN ITS OWN DEFENSE AND SECURITY FOR MANY YEARS.

AND THE CONFLICT IN UKRAINE HAS FLUSHED THAT OUT, SHOWN IT TO BE THE REALITY.

AND IT FALLS TO US AS LEADERS TO RECOGNIZE THAT, TO CHANGE AND STRENGTHEN EUROPE, WHICH IS WHAT I'M ARGUING FOR, WHAT URSULA IS ARGUING FOR, AND NOT JUST SAY THAT BUT FOLLOW IT WITH ACTIONS AND URSULA'S TAKEN THE LEAD ON THIS IN THE WORK THAT SHE'S DONE PARTICULARLY ON THE FUNDING OF THE DEFENSE WORK THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

BECAUSE WE WILL ONLY BE ABLE TO PRESERVE NATO IN THE WAY IT IS NEEDED FOR THE NEXT 80 YEARS IF WE CHANGE AND STRENGTHEN THE EUROPEAN DIMENSION.

THAT IS SOMETHING WHICH A NUMBER OF AMERICAN PRESIDENTS HAVE SAID FOR SOME TIME.

I BELIEVE TO BE TRUE.

AND I THINK WE'VE GOT TO SEIZE THIS MOVEMENT TO MOVE FORWARD.

NOT TO PULL APART THE TRANS-ATLANTIC RELATIONSHIP BUT TO MAKE SURE IT WORKS IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE AND THE TIMES THAT WE FACE.

>> THE CURRENT SECRETARY- GENERAL OF NATO, AFTER TRUMP'S DAVOS SPEECH, ACTUALLY AFTER PRIME MINISTER CARNEY'S SPEECH, WHICH TALKED ABOUT A RUPTURE, HE SAID IF YOU ALL ARE THINKING THAT YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO WITHOUT THE UNITED STATES THEN DREAM ON, IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

SO HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE TO GET TO THIS POSTURE THAT YOU BOTH SAY YOU NEED TO GET TO?

>> WELL, THE FIRST THING I'D SAY IS THAT WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT A FUTURE THAT TEARS US APART FROM THE EURO-ATLANTIC ALLIANCE THAT WE HAVE.

NATO HAS BEEN THE SINGLE MOST EFFECTIVE AND SUCCESSFUL MILITARY ALLIANCE THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN.

AND WE SHOULD NEVER MOVE AWAY FROM IT.

I OFTEN AND ALWAYS BASE MY THINKING ON WHAT IS THE REALITY ON THE GROUND.

AND THE REALITY ON THE GROUND SO FAR AS THE UK IS CONCERNED IS WE ARE WORKING WITH THE U. S. ON DEFENSE, SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE 24/7.

EVERY SINGLE DAY.

SO THAT IS THE REALITY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING.

AND THAT IS AS TIGHT NOW AS IT'S EVER BEEN AND I SEE NO SIGN OF THAT WEAKENING.

NOR SHOULD IT BECAUSE THAT'S IN THE INTERESTS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND THE INTERESTS OF EUROPE AND GLOBALLY.

AND THAT GOES INTO DEFENSE SECURITY, INTELLIGENCE, OBVIOUSLY NUCLEAR CAPABILITY AS WELL.

AND THEREFORE, I'M OFTEN URGED BACK IN MY OWN PARLIAMENT THAT WE SHOULD WALK AWAY FROM WHAT WE'VE GOT, AND I REJECT THAT.

BUT I THINK SIMPLY SITTING WHERE WE ARE ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH AND THEREFORE THE CHANGE DOES NEED TO COME.

THAT NEEDS EUROPE TO BE STRONGER, TO BE WORKING MORE CLOSELY TOGETHER.

AND THAT'S WHY I SAID WHAT I SAID ABOUT THE UK, EU RELATIONSHIP.

WE'RE TEN YEARS ON FROM BREXIT.

WE ARE NOT THE BRITAIN OF THE BREXIT YEARS.

WE'RE A BRITAIN THAT WANTS TO WORK WITH THE EU EVEN MORE CLOSELY IN LIGHT OF THE CHALLENGE THAT WE FACE HERE TEN YEARS ON.

THAT WILL TAKE TIME.

WE ARE WORKING TOGETHER.

WE HAD A VERY GOOD UK- EU SUMMIT LAST YEAR.

WE WILL HAVE ANOTHER ONE THIS YEAR WHERE WE CAN MAKE FURTHER STEPS FORWARD.

BUT THIS IS OF SOME URGENCY BECAUSE I THINK THAT ON DEFENSE AND SECURITY UNTIL THE UKRAINE CONFLICT WE DIDN'T REALLY WAKE UP TO THE REALITY WE'RE FACING.

>> BUT YOU ALSO SAID, AND I WANT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS, THAT SOME RED LINES HAVE BEEN CROSSED AND THEY CANNOT BE UNCROSSED.

YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

IN YOUR SPEECH.

I THINK.

WHAT RED LINES ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

BECAUSE THERE IS A MASSIVE DEFICIT OF TRUST BETWEEN MANY PEOPLE IN THE ALLIANCE AND CERTAINLY LEADERS WHO ARE NOW HAVING TO DO WHAT YOU'RE DOING, WORKAROUNDED, DERISKING, DECOUPLING, WHATEVER YOU MIGHT WANT TO CALL IT, INDEPENDENCE.

WHAT RED LINES HAVE BEEN CROSSED THAT CANNOT BE UNCROSSED?

>> SO FOR EXAMPLE, I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR, OUR DIGITAL SOVEREIGNTY IS OUR DIGITAL SOVEREIGNTY.

VERY CLEAR ON THAT ONE.

[ APPLAUSE ] AND WE HAVE A LONG TRADITION IN FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

ACTUALLY, THE ENLIGHTENMENT STARTED ON OUR CONTINENT.

AND WE ARE VERY CLEAR WITH DIGITAL SOVEREIGNTY ALSO THAT WHAT IS FORBIDDEN OFFLINE IS FORBIDDEN ON- LINE.

AND WE WILL NOT FLINCH WHERE THAT IS CONCERNED.

WE WILL BE VERY STEADFAST TO PURSUE THIS VERY CLEAR DEMAND FOR US.

BUT IF I MAY ALSO LOOK AT THE QUOTE OF THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF NATO, DREAM ON, I WOULD LIKE TO TELL HIM, MY DEAR FRIEND, NO, MY DEAR FRIEND, THERE'S NOT ONLY STATUS QUO GOES ON OR DIVISION AND DISRUPTION.

THERE IS A LOT IN BETWEEN.

AND STATUS QUO IS NOT SATISFACTORY, NEITHER FOR US NOR FOR THE UNITED STATES.

SO THERE IS MUCH MORE IN BETWEEN.

AND AN INDEPENDENT EUROPE JUST MEANS LET'S DEVELOP OUR STRENGTH WITHOUT CONSTANTLY LEANING ON SOMEONE ELSE AND THEN BE BEING STRONG MOVING FORWARD AND FACING THE CHALLENGES THE WORLD IS OFFERING TO US.

THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO TELL MY FRIEND MARK RUTTE.

[ APPLAUSE ] >> PRIME MINISTER, IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT VON DER LEYEN TALKED ABOUT THE DIGITAL SPACE, THAT IS A RED LINE THAT CANNOT BE MESSED AROUND WITH.

WHAT ABOUT THE VIOLATING INTERNATIONAL BORDERS SPACE?

DO YOU BELIEVE THE U. S. THREAT TO GREENLAND IS OVER?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S --FIRSTLY, I'M VERY PLEASED THAT THAT IS NOW IN A PROCESS OF DIALOGUE, WHICH IS WHERE IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

THE SECURITY IN THE ARCTIC IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF US, AND WE NEED TO DO MORE.

THAT'S WHY I ANNOUNCED WHAT I ANNOUNCED ABOUT THE CARRIER STRIKE GROUP.

I THOUGHT THOSE WEEKS OF GREENLAND WERE QUITE INSTRUCTIVE BECAUSE WE HAD CERTAINLY FROM THE BRITISH POINT OF VIEW THE USUAL MIX OF COMMON SENSE PRAGMATISM BUT STICKING TO OUR VALUES AND PRINCIPLES, AND ACROSS EUROPE WE STUCK TO THOSE VALUES AND PRINCIPLES ABOUT SOVEREIGNTY.

>> ABOUT UKRAINE, BECAUSE AGAIN, MARCO RUBIO, THE SECRETARY OF STATE, BARELY MENTIONED IT EXCEPT FOR AN ELUSIVE PEACE, HE SAID THOSE WORDS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID IN HIS LATEST COMMENTS THAT UKRAINE, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY NEEDS TO GET ON TO IT BECAUSE RUSSIA WANTS A DEAL.

THESE ARE HIS WORDS.

AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY NEEDS TO GET ON TO IT RIGHT NOW, OTHERWISE HE'S GOING TO MISS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY.

SECRETARY RUBIO DID NOT GO TO YOUR MEETING, YOUR LEADERS MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY LAST NIGHT.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS ALL STANDS?

WHERE DO THE NEGOTIATIONS STAND?

IS IT ZELENSKYY WHO NEEDS TO BE PRESSURED?

>> SO I THINK IT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT THAT WE DO NOT BUY IN THE RUSSIAN NARRATIVE.

AND THIS HAS BEEN OUT TOO MUCH THERE.

I MEAN, IF WE LOOK AT THE STRATEGIC GOALS AND THE MILITARY GOALS OF PUTIN, IT'S A HUGE FAILURE.

HE WANTED TO RUSSIFY UKRAINE.

UKRAINE HAS BECOME EUROPEAN.

HE WANTED TO STOP NATO.

NATO HAS BEEN --HAS GOTTEN BIGGER WITH SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

HE WANTED TO OCCUPY UKRAINE WITHIN DAYS OR WEEKS.

WELL, NOW WE ARE UNFORTUNATELY IN THE FOURTH YEAR OF THE WAR.

AND I THINK IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WE ON OUR SIDE TELL THE TRUTH WHAT IS GOING ON IN RUSSIA WITH THE WAR ECONOMY, WITH SKYROCKETING INTEREST RATES AND INFLATION, COMPLETELY ISOLATED, AND NOW THIS IS A WAR OF ATTRITION.

AND IN THIS WAR OF ATTRITION IT IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE THAT WE PUSH FORWARD THE NEGOTIATIONS AND PUT PRESSURE ON PUTIN THAT HE FINALLY COMES TO THE NEGOTIATION TABLE.

AND THEREFORE, IT WAS SO VALUABLE THAT WE HAVE DEVELOPED TOGETHER THE SECURITY GUARANTEES, THE PROSPERITY PAPER, AND ARE DISCUSSING THE 20-POINT PLAN BECAUSE IT IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE THAT UKRAINE, THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE UNITED STATES ARE ON ONE SIDE OF THE PAGE, THAT WE ARE VERY CLEAR WHAT OUR STANDPOINT IS.

THIS HAS VERY MUCH MATURED.

AND NOW IT'S A MATTER OF PUTTING PRESSURE ON PUTIN THAT HE COMES TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

BECAUSE HE DOES NOT WANT TO SIT DOWN TO HAVE PEACE, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY ABHORRENT.

THEREFORE, THE PRESSURE WE PUT ON HIM, AND THE ECONOMY IS AT THE LIMIT, IS THE ONE WAY REALLY TO MAKE PROGRESS IN GETTING TO THE NEGOTIATION TABLE TO PEACE TALKS.

>> YEAH.

I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

IN TEN DAYS IS THE FOUR-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE BEGINNING OF THE CONFLICT.

AND IT IS THEREFORE IMPORTANT TO REMIND OURSELVES WHO THE AGGRESSOR IS.

THE AGGRESSOR IS RUSSIA.

AND THE QUICKEST WAY FOR THIS CONFLICT TO END IS FOR RUSSIA TO STOP ITS AGGRESSION.

AND THEREFORE, WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH TWO EQUAL PARTIES.

THERE'S AN AGGRESSOR, WHICH IS RUSSIA, AND THERE IS UKRAINE, WHICH HAS BEEN SUBJECT TO ATTACK AND KILLING AND BOMBING AND TAKEN A HUGE -- OR PAID A HUGE PRICE.

I AGREE WITH URSULA THAT ACTUALLY IF YOU LOOK AT THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND IT WAS A HUGE STRATEGIC ERROR FOR PUTIN.

HE THOUGHT HE WOULD TAKE UKRAINE IN A MATTER OF WEEKS.

AND HERE WE ARE FOUR YEARS LATER AND HE HAS BY NO MEANS ACHIEVED HIS END AND HE HAS HAD THE OPPOSITE EFFECT.

THE NATO SUMMIT LAST YEAR WAS THE BIGGEST AND THE STRONGEST WITH THE GREATEST RESOLVE FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

SO NATO IS STRONGER.

RUSSIA'S LOST, AS I MENTIONED A MOMENT AGO, A MILLION LIVES TO THIS CONFLICT.

IN JANUARY THIS YEAR, I THINK I'M RIGHT IN SAYING 30,000 DIED ON THE FRONT LINE.

THAT IS WHY WE'RE ALL WORKING FOR A JUST AND LASTING PEACE.

BUT IT WILL ONLY BE JUST AND LASTING IF THERE ARE SECURITY GUARANTEES BECAUSE WE'VE HAD A CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES BEFORE BUT WITHOUT ANYTHING SITTING BEHIND IT.

AND ONE THING WE KNOW ABOUT PUTIN, IF NOTHING SITS BEHIND IT HE'LL GO AGAIN.

WHICH IS WHY WE SET UP THE COALITION OF THE WILLING TO WORK ON SECURITY GUARANTEES.

I'M REALLY PLEASED WE'RE WORKING WITH THE U. S. ON THAT.

ACTUALLY, ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

WHATEVER WORDS ARE USED BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS, DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE GLOBE, THE PRACTICAL REALITY IS WE'RE WORKING WITH THE AMERICANS ON THE SECURITY GUARANTEES AND WE'RE MORE ADVANCED NOW THAN WE WERE THREE MONTHS AGO.

AND I & I'M REALLY PLEASED THAT WE'RE IN A BETTER POSITION.

>> I NEED TO ASK YOU A POLITICAL QUESTION BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE AT HOME ARE INTERESTED.

YOU'VE JUST SPOKEN ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT NEEDS TO BE SPENT ON THE UKRAINE DEFENSE, ON BRITAIN, ON EUROPE.

THAT TAKES POLITICS AND CONVINCING.

YOU HAVE -- I WANTED TO ASK YOU, DO YOU THINK YOU NARROWLY JUST MISSED BEING TOPPLED?

DO YOU THINK THAT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE POLITICS AT HOME IS DISTRACTING YOU?

AND PERHAPS MAKING YOU VULNERABLE TO A BREXIT FOLLOW, YOU KNOW, THE REFORM PARTY OR MAYBE EVEN THE CONSERVATIVES WHO MIGHT NOT WANT TO PURSUE THE KIND OF POLITICS THAT YOU WANT TO PURSUE.

>> NO, I REJECT THAT.

I ENDED THE WEEK MUCH STRONGER THAN I STARTED IT, AND THAT'S A VERY GOOD PLACE TO BE.

AND MY PARTY AND MY GOVERNMENT IS COMPLETELY UNITED ON THE QUESTION OF UKRAINE AND DEFENSE AND SECURITY AND THE NEED FOR STRONGER RELATIONS WITH EUROPE ON DEFENSE, ON SECURITY AND ON ECONOMY AS WELL.

AND SO I THINK THAT THERE IS REAL STRENGTH IN THE POSITION I'VE NOW SET OUT.

I THINK THE WHOLE OF THE GOVERNMENT IS UNITED BEHIND THAT.

I THINK ACTUALLY IT UNITES ACROSS THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.

NOT EVERYBODY, I ACCEPT, REFORM HAVE A DIFFERENT AGENDA, THEY'RE PRO PUTIN.

WE KNOW WHERE THEY STAND.

IMAGINE IF THEY WERE IN GOVERNMENT IN THE UNITED KINGDOM.

THE COALITION OF THE WILLING COULD NOT EXIST WITH UK PARTICIPATION IN IT.

WE WOULD NOT BE SEEN AS A LEADER ON THE EUROPEAN OR INTERNATIONAL STAGE.

WE WOULD BE SEEN AS A COUNTRY THAT PEOPLE COULDN'T DO BUSINESS WITH.

SO IT'S NOT UNIVERSAL ACROSS OUR PARLIAMENT, BUT THERE'S A VERY STRONG FEELING AMONGST RIGHT- MINDED POLITICIANS THAT WE STICK TOGETHER ON UKRAINE.

WHEN I WAS IN OPPOSITION, WE SUPPORTED THE THEN GOVERNMENT, CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT ON UKRAINE BECAUSE IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO FOR THE VALUES THAT WE UPHOLD AND I'M PLEASED TO SAY THAT THE CONSERVATIVE OPPOSITION AS IT NOW IS SUPPORTS THE GOVERNMENT WHEN IT COMES TO UKRAINE BECAUSE AGAIN, WE SHARE THE VALUES THAT UNDERPIN IT.

SO FOR ALL OF THE DIVISIONS THAT YOU HAVE TO GET IN POLITICS, THERE IS SOME REAL CLARITY AND SOME REAL CERTAINTY ON THESE KEY ISSUES.

>> PRIME MINISTER STARMER, PRESIDENT VON DER LEYEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

THANK YOU.

[ APPLAUSE ] > >> NEXT, ANOTHER CLIMATE ROLLBACK IN AMERICA.

THE 2009 ENDANGERMENT FINDING WHICH DETERMINED THAT GREENHOUSE GASES THREATEN PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE WAS REVOKED ON THURSDAY.

TRUMP CALLS IT THE LARGEST DEREGULATORY ACTION IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

THE U. S. IS THE SECOND LARGEST CARBON EMITTER IN THE WORLD.

AND CLIMB SCIENTIST DAVID HOLLAND WARNS THAT THE CONSEQUENCES ARE BEING FELT IN ANTARCTICA.

HE SPEAKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN AS HE RETURNS FROM A RECENT EXPEDITION THERE.

>> BIANNA, THANKS.

DAVID HOLLAND, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE JUST SPENT ALMOST TWO MONTHS ON AN EXPEDITION TO GO AND STUDY AND LEARN FROM THE THWAITES GLACIER DOWN IN ANTARCTICA.

WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS EXPEDITION?

>> THE POINT ULTIMATELY IS TO PROVIDE SOCIETY WITH A FORECAST OF THE FUTURE OF THE GLOBAL SEA LEVEL.

SO THIS YOU THINK ABOUT IT THE WORLD'S COASTLINE IS ENORMOUS AND ANTARCTICA POSES A THREAT TO THAT OF RISING SEA LEVELS.

OF COURSE, THROUGH TIME SEA LEVELS HAVE GONE UP AND DOWN BY HUNDREDS OF FEET NATURALLY.

AND SO RIGHT NOW HUMANITY SEEMS TO BE TWEAKING THE ANTARCTIC ICE SHEET.

>> SO WHAT WERE THE KINDS OF INSTRUMENTS, WHAT WAS THE SORT OF SCIENTIFIC TEST THAT YOU WANTED TO DO SO THAT WE WOULD GET A BETTER HANDLE ON THIS?

>> I CAN KIND OF MAKE A VISUAL FOR YOU.

ANTARCTICA IS A BIG ICE SHEET ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE UNITED STATES, AND IT'S SITTING ON LAND, BUT A PART OF IT, IF YOU COULD PICTURE, IS LIKE THE GULF OF MEXICO.

THE ICE SHEET IS ACTUALLY IN THE OCEAN.

AND THAT'S THE PART WE ARE REALLY INTERESTED IN.

IT'S CALLED WEST ANTARCTICA.

AND MORE SPECIFICALLY WE WERE AT A GLACIER ABOUT THE SIZE OF FLORIDA CALLED THWAITES.

IT'S IN THE OCEAN.

YOU CAN PICTURE IT'S ON THE SEA FLOOR BUT GROUNDED.

AND THE OCEAN HAS EASY ACCESS TO IT.

SO THAT'S THE FOCUS OF OUR STUDY.

AND WE BROUGHT INSTRUMENTS TO FIGURE OUT HOW THE OCEAN IS AFFECTING IT.

AND I'LL ADD ONE MORE PIECE TO THAT.

JUST TO MAKE IT THE QUICKEST ANALOGY.

THAT GLACIER, THAT PARTICULAR ONE IS UNSTABLE.

JUST LIKE A BALL ON A HILL, IF YOU TOUCH IT IT WILL ROLL AWAY, A BALL IN A VALLEY IS STABLE.

SO FOR MATHEMATICAL AND PHYSICAL REASONS THAT GLACIER IS UNSTABLE AND ONCE PUSHED IT MIGHT RETREAT FROM WHERE IT IS ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE SOUTH POLE.

>> PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE FOR US BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A HARD THING FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND, JUST THE SIZE AND SCALE.

WHAT IS THE REAL RISK HERE?

WHY IS THIS KIND OF THE DOOMSDAY GLACIER?

I'VE SEEN LOTS OF DIFFERENT TITLES ASCRIBED TO IT.

>> RIGHT.

SO IT IS A SPECIAL GLACIER IN THAT IT'S THE ONE THAT'S ALREADY GROUNDED IN THE OCEAN.

IT'S SITTING ON THE SEA FLOOR.

BUT MORE PARTICULARLY A SUBTLE FACT IS THAT IT'S IN A BASIN THAT IS LIKE A BOWL, LIKE A CEREAL BOWL.

SO IT GETS DEEPER AS YOU GO INLAND.

GLACIERS FLOW ACCORDING TO THEIR HEIGHT.

SO ONCE YOU START UNRAVELING IT AT THE COAST, AS YOU GO INLAND IT GETS DEEPER AND HIGHER.

DEEPER AND HIGHER.

GOING FASTER AND FASTER.

THAT'S A RUNAWAY.

SO RIGHT NOW THAT GLACIER IS ON THE LIP OF THE BOWL AND IT'S STABILIZED ON THIS LIP.

EXACTLY WHERE WE POSITIONED OUR SHIP BY GOOD FORTUNE THIS YEAR.

AND SO ONCE IT COMES OFF THAT LIP, WHICH IT'S CURRENTLY DOING, IN COMPUTER MODELS IT JUST UNRAVELS ITSELF.

SO THERE'S TWO INGREDIENTS HERE.

ONE IS YOU HAVE THE MOST UNSTABLE PRECONFIGURED GLACIER IN THE WORLD CALLED THWAITES, NICKNAMED DOOMSDAY.

BUT THE SECOND THING IS YOU NEED A TRIGGER.

AND THE TRIGGER SHOWED UP AROUND 1940 OR 1950, WHEN WARM OCEAN WATER APPEARED ON THE DOORSTEP OF THE GLACIER WHERE IT MEETS THE OCEAN.

SO PREVIOUSLY THAT WAS NOT THERE.

OTHERWISE, THE GLACIER WOULD BE LONG GONE.

SO IT'S A TWO-PUNCH EFFECT.

ONE IS YOU HAVE AN UNSTABLE GLACIER, AND THE SECOND THING IS OF ALL THE PLACES AROUND ANTARCTICA WARM WATER SHOWED UP EXACTLY THERE.

A LITTLE BIT PRECARIOUS IN ITS NATURE.

AND NOW WE HAVE THIS TWO-PUNCH.

>> I GUESS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THERE'S ACTUALLY A WHOLE DIFFERENT TYPE OF MELTING THAT'S HAPPENING BECAUSE WARM WATER IS GOING UNDERNEATH THE GLACIER AND JUST TAKING, YOU KNOW, THE HEAT IS ABSORBING AND MELTING THE ICE DOWN THERE?

>> YEAH.

SO THAT'S THE FIRST REACTION PEOPLE HAVE, WHICH IN THE SUPER BIG PICTURE IS PERHAPS CORRECT.

WARMING OUR PLANET, WHICH IS NOW HAPPENING FOR THE LAST CENTURY, DOES IN FACT AFFECT THE SURFACE MELT.

BUT THAT'S A SLOW PROCESS THAT TAKES THOUSAND OR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

IN THE PAST IF WE LOOK BACK THROUGH THE RECORDS SEA LEVEL HAS RISEN BY UP TO 25 FEET IN ONE CENTURY GLOBALLY.

25 FEET.

AND THAT CAN ONLY COME THROUGH A VERY RAPID PROCESS.

WE'VE IDENTIFIED THAT PROCESS IN THE NORTH, GREENLAND, AND HERE SOUTH IN ANTARCTICA AS YOU SAID, WARM WATER SLIPPING UNDER THE ICE SHEETS.

OF COURSE, ICE IS LIGHTER THAN LIQUID WATER.

ONE OF THE FEW SUBSTANCES IN THE UNIVERSE THAT ARE LIKE THAT.

SO ICE FLOATS.

AND SO WARM SALTY WATER FROM THE TROPICS MAKES ITS WAY HERE, AND BECAUSE OF CHANGING --THIS IS SOMETHING I FOUND HARD TO BELIEVE, THIS LITTLE STORY, WHICH IS BY CHANGING THE ATMOSPHERIC COMPOSITION OF GREENHOUSE GAS YOU CHANGE THE WINDS OVER THE EQUATORIA PART OF THE OCEAN WHICH SETS OFF AND AFFECTS THE WINDS HERE, BRINGS THE WARM WHY WATER AND UPSETS THE GLACIER.

A VERY CONVOLUTED COMPLEX PATH BUT ONE THAT HAPPENED.

>> SO IF THIS GLACIER KIND OF ACCELERATED IN ITS MELTING, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR SOMEONE LIVING IN COASTAL AREAS LIKE NEW YORK OR FLORIDA OR CALIFORNIA?

>> IT TURNS OUT THAT WHAT HAPPENS IN OUR PART OF THE WORLD, IN THE U. S. , AFFECTS ANTARCTICA AND ANTARCTICA AFFECTS US.

IN PARTICULAR THWAITES REPRESENTS A COUPLE OF FEET OF SEA LEVEL RISE GLOBALLY.

HARI, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, THAT'S A LOT OF WATER.

TWO FEET OR MORE.

ALL OVER THE GLOBE.

AND ITS NEIGHBORS LEFT AND RIGHT, EAST AND WEST, MOST LIKELY WOULD GO UNSTABLE ONCE THE KEYSTONE OF THWAITES IS PLUCKED OUT OF ANTARCTICA.

AND SO THEN YOU'RE UP TO TEN FEET.

AND THEN EAST ANTARCTICA HAS MORE STORY.

SO IT'S THE CHANGING OF OUR GLOBAL COASTLINE.

FLORIDA, PARTS OF IT WOULD DISAPPEAR.

AND LOUISIANA, NORTH CAROLINA, ET CETERA.

SO A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD FIND THAT THE BEACH HAS MOVED.

>> YOU TOOK DIFFERENT TYPES OF INSTRUMENTS THERE TO ANTARCTICA TO TRY TO STUDY THIS.

YOU WERE TRYING TO DRILL HOLES.

YOU WERE SENDING ROBOTS.

TELL ME A LITTLE ABOUT THE SCIENCE YOU WERE PERFORMING TO TRY TO GET BETTER DATA.

>> I'D LIKE TO PAINT A VISUAL PICTURE.

SO THINK OF ANTARCTICA AGAIN AS A BOWL OF ICE.

THE SIZE OF THE U. S. AND THE CONTINENTAL SHELF IS WHAT'S BETWEEN THE PACIFIC OCEAN, THE SOUTHERN OCEAN AND ANTARCTICA.

THE CONTINENTAL SHELF HERE IS QUITE DEEP, 6,200 FEET BECAUSE ANTARCTICA'S BEEN PUSHING IT DOWN.

THE PLACE WHERE THE WARM WATER AS IT GOES AROUND ANTARCTICA IN THE ANTARCTIC CIRCUMPOLAR CURRENT, THE CLOSEST PLACE IT CRASHES INTO ANTARCTICA IS RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THWAITES.

BUT MOREOVER, ANOTHER FACTOR TO TAKE IN IS THERE'S THE EQUIVALENT OF THE GRAND CANYON BETWEEN THE CONTINENTAL SHELF BREAK AND THE FACE OF THWAITES.

AND THAT SEEMS A BIT UNUSUAL.

BUT IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, AS THWAITES WAXED AND WAYNED THROUGH ICE AGES IT CARVED OUT IN THE SEA FLOOR, A RIVER BED, A CHANNEL.

AND IN THAT CHANNEL THAT'S WHERE THE WARM WATER IS.

WHY IS IT AT THE BOTTOM?

BECAUSE IT'S REALLY SALTY.

IT STARTED ITS LIFE BASICALLY IN SOUTH BEACH MIAMI AS PART OF THE GLOBAL OCEAN CONVEYOR BELT, MADE ITS WAY AROUND THE WORLD, AND PART OF THAT BELT IS THERE IN THIS CANYON.

SO IN THE CHANNEL THERE IS A SILL WHICH AS THE GLACIER MOVED BACK AND FORTH OVER TIME IT LEFT WHAT I WOULD CALL A MORANE, A LARGE PILE OF DEBRIS, ROCK.

AND THE WARM WATER JUST GETS OVER THAT SILL AND THEN GOES DOWNHILL TO ANTARCTICA.

SO WE PUT SOME ROBOTS, TWO ROBOTS WHICH ARE OCEAN TEMPERATURE AND WATER CURRENT SPEED SENSORS, UP AND DOWN ON A WIRE.

THEY'RE BUSY NOW GOING UP AND DOWN EVERY HOUR.

WE'LL GET BACK IN TWO YEARS, HOPEFULLY, AND GET THE DATA FROM THAT.

SO THEN THAT CREATES A VISUAL OF WHERE IS THE WARM WATER, HOW MUCH OF IT IS COMING.

THE SECOND PART WAS WHEN WE GOT TO THE GLACIER A PART OF THE GLACIER WHERE IT COMES OUT INTO THE OCEAN BEGINS TO FLOAT AND FORM A FEATURE KNOWN AS AN ICE SHELF, FLOATING EXTENSION.

AND THROUGH THAT ICE SHELF THE OCEAN IS BENEATH, WE DRILLED ABOUT A HALF A MILE THROUGH IT, AND THE PLAN WAS TO PUT SENSORS DOWN THROUGH THE ICE SHELF DOWN INTO THE CAVITY OF THE OCEAN THAT'S BELOW THE ICE SHELF.

THAT'S A SPECIAL POINT.

THAT'S WHERE THE CONTINENTAL ICE BEGINS TO UNGROUND AND FLOAT, AND THE OCEAN'S COMING THE OTHER WAY AND THE SEA FLOOR'S BELOW IT.

THAT JUNCTURE IS THE BEACH OF ANTARCTICA.

IT'S AROUND A HALF MILE, BUT THAT'S THE BEACH AND THAT'S WHERE THE ACTION IS HAPPENING.

UNFORTUNATELY, AS WE --TIME IS RUNNING OUT AND IT BEGINS TO FREEZE, OUR SENSORS WENT IN AND THEY FROZE 3/4 OF THE WAY DOWN THE HOLE.

SO THAT SAILED.

AND SO THAT MISSION DID NOT SUCCEED.

>> I THINK ABOUT THAT.

AND LOOK, SCIENCE IS A SERIES OF STEPS AND IT'S NOT IN A PERFECT LINE.

I WONDER WHAT DID THIS PARTICULAR TYPE OF FAILURE IN THIS EXPERIMENT TEACH YOU TO DO BETTER THE NEXT TIME?

>> RIGHT.

IT TEACHES YOU --AND I'M GLAD YOU ASKED THAT.

BECAUSE ONLY BY BEING HERE AND NOT SUCCEEDING, ONLY -- IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY.

BUT FAILURE TEACHES YOU A LOT.

AND IT'S TAUGHT ME THAT WE NEED TO DO THIS IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAY.

IT HAS TO BE REDESIGNED, REENGINEERED.

IF WE'RE GOING TO GET THE DATA THAT'S GOING TO BUILD A FORECAST THAT'S GOING TO HELP PEOPLE ANSWER THE QUESTION WHEN WILL THE GLOBAL COASTLINE FLOOD OR IF IT WILL AT ALL, IT'S ONLY COMING THROUGH MATH AND PHYSICS TO AN EQUATION THAT CAN MAKE A FORECAST ON YOUR iPHONE, THAT'S ONLY COMING FROM DATA.

THE WAY WE'VE BEEN GOING ABOUT IT IS NOT WORKING.

AND SO I THINK WE HAVE TO LEAN ON WORLD EXPERTISE FROM OTHER INDUSTRIES.

I CAN THINK OF ONE.

OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.

WHICH COULD REALLY GO AT THIS PROBLEM AND SOLVE IT FAR BETTER THAN WE CAN.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S IRONIC OR FITTING THAT THE KBPTS IN THE INDUSTRY THAT IS CONTRIBUTING TO CLIMATE CHANGE WOULD BE SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT ACTUALLY HELP YOU DRILL THE HOLE THE BEST WAY TO GET THE BEST DATA TO PREDICT.

YOU KNOW -- >> YEAH.

AND IT MIGHT BE HOLE DRILLING OR IT MIGHT BE MORE OF OBSERVATORIES ON THE SEA FLOOR.

YOU MIGHT BE AWARE THAT SOME PLACES ON EARTH HAVE THE SEA FLOOR NOW CABLES AND ROBOTS AND EXPLORED.

SO I THINK THAT'S THE TECHNOLOGY TO BRING TO ANTARCTICA OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> WE HAVE FAMOUSLY WITHDRAWN FROM THE PARIS CLIMATE AGREEMENT.

AS OF JANUARY OF 2026 THAT IS SORT OF OFFICIAL.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING WHERE 174 COUNTRIES CAME TOGETHER AND WE TRIED TO AGREE ON AT LEAST A SHARED REALITY.

AND NOW WE SEEM TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

AT LEAST THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THAT.

CONSIDERING HOW BIG WE ARE, HOW MUCH POLLUTANTS THAT WE EMIT INTO THE AIR, HOW RESPONSIBLE WE ARE FOR THE REST OF THE PLANET, ARE YOU HOPEFUL THAT CONFERENCES LIKE THIS CAN WORK?

>> VERY MUCH SO.

RIGHT NOW THE U. S. IS GOING THROUGH SOME DRAMATIC CHANGES IN ITS WHOLE APPROACH TO CLIMATE.

I THINK PART OF IT, IT LIES ON THE SHOULDER OF SCIENTISTS FOR INABILITY TO EXPLAIN THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM.

WE MAKE THINGS TOO DISTANT FROM PEOPLE.

WE USE WORDS THAT DISCONNECT PEOPLE FROM WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO EXPRESS.

AND SHOCKING AS IT MAY SEEM, I PERSONALLY AM NOT A BIG FAN OF THE WORD CLIMATE.

I DON'T KNOW IF PEOPLE KNOW WHAT IT'S MEAN.

IT'S WEATHER, LONG-TERM WEATHER.

IT'S THE THING THAT AFFECTS YOU EVERY DAY OF YOUR LIFE.

A CLIMATE MODEL --I REMEMBER A WHILE AGO A CONGRESSPERSON IN ANTARCTICA WAS ASKING ME WHY DO WE FUND CLIMATE MODELS?

AND I SAID YOU DON'T, YOU FUND WEATHER MODELS.

THE ONE YOU USE IN ARKANSAS IN ORDER TO PLAN HOW DOES THE ARMY WORK, THE AIR FORCE, CIVIL NAVIGATION, AGRICULTURE, THAT'S THE RESULT OF OUR RESEARCH THAT YOU'VE SUPPORTED THAT PRODUCES WEATHER MODELS.

AND THE CLIMATE MODEL, THE GLACIER I'M TALKING ABOUT, IS JUST AN EXTENSION OF THAT.

SO WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR TO PEOPLE WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO AND THE BENEFIT TO SOCIETY AND TO THEM IN THEIR DAILY LIVES.

>> I WONDER --YOU KNOW, LOOK, SOME OF THESE SHIFTS COULD BE ABRUPT AS YOU'RE SAYING, IF THIS GLACIER DID FALL IN.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE LONGER TIME HORIZON OF HOW WE PERCEIVE DANGER AND THREAT AND WHETHER AND HOW WE RESPOND TO THAT, IS IT TOO LATE?

>> NOT AT ALL.

IN RECENT TIMES, YES, WE HAVE PERFORMED A GEOENGINEERING EXPERIMENT WHICH WE ARE KICKING IT UP ANOTHER RATCHET LEVEL NEXT YEAR IN INCREASING GREENHOUSE GASES.

SO IT'S GOING TO WARMER AND WARMER.

AND THE PLANET'S GETTING WARMER AND WARMER.

SO THERE'S ONE THOUGHT, WHICH IS COULD YOU REMOVE THE CARBON FROM THE ATMOSPHERE, CALLED MITIGATION?

TURNS OUT THAT'S REALLY DIFFICULT TO DO.

AS I BREATHE HERE, I'M BREATHING AIR THAT HAS 50% MORE CARBON THAN IT DID A CENTURY AGO.

THAT'S A LOT.

AND YOU CAN'T SEE IT WITH YOUR EYES BECAUSE WE'RE VISIBLE.

BUT IN THE INFRARED THIS HAS INCREASED AND PUT A BLANKET OVER THE EARTH.

SO OPTION A IS REMOVE THE CARBON.

AND WE DON'T SEEM TO BE MAKING PROGRESS THERE.

OPTION B IS WHAT IS CALLED ADAPTATION.

AND THAT IS YOU ADAPT TO THE PROBLEM.

AND SO ONE THING IS ARE WE GOING TO LIVE WITH THE PROBLEM.

WE MIGHT RECOGNIZE THAT PART OF THE ISSUE IS THAT THE CARBON IS INCREASING AND WE SHOULD HAVE OTHER APPROACHES.

NOW, SOME PEOPLE ARE VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED TO THIS, AND I GET IT.

THAT BRINGS ME TO MY POINT, WHICH IS IN THE CASE OF THIS GLACIER, THWAITES, THE GRAND CANYON THAT I SPOKE OF AND THE SILL THAT I SPOKE OF AND THE WARM WATER CREEPING OVER IT, WE HUMANITY COULD BUILD A BARRIER ABOVE THAT, A CURTAIN, AND THAT WOULD STOP IT.

AND THE GLACIER DOES NOT HAVE A MIND OF ITS OWN.

IT'S NOT GOING TO DISSIPATE AND FALL APART IF IT'S NOT TRIGGERED.

SO THERE'S A POTENTIAL SOLUTION.

AND THERE ARE A HANDFUL OF THESE AROUND THE WORLD.

SO THAT'S SOMETHING, PART OF THIS CRUISE WE FOCUSED ON, IS IS THERE A SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM?

AND I THINK THERE JUST MIGHT BE.

SO THAT ALSO GIVES ME SOME HOPE.

WILL THIS WORK?

BECAUSE WE CANNOT AFFORD TO BUILD BARRIERS AROUND THE ENTIRE COASTLINE OF THE PLANET.

IT CAN'T BE DONE.

A FEW RICH PLACES, NEW YORK CITY MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING, ET CETERA.

FLORIDA CANNOT.

BUT HERE'S A LITTLE PLACE THAT YOU COULD BLOCK.

AND FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES IT MIGHT STOP AND/OR HALT THE PROBLEM TO GIVE US TIME.

>> I WONDER IF YOU COULD JUST GIVE OUR AUDIENCE A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE THERE.

I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN THERE MANY, MANY TIMES BEFORE.

BUT PUT IN PERSPECTIVE WHAT PEOPLE SEE ON TV, SO TO SPEAK, VERSUS WHAT'S HAPPENING, WHAT YOU DON'T SEE, HOW SIGNIFICANCE THIS KIND OF MOVEMENT OF ICE IS.

>> OKAY.

WELL, TWO THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, I WAS SHOCKED WHEN I WOKE UP AND LOOKED OUT MY PORT WINDOW AND THERE WAS A HUGE CRUISE SHIP NEARBY TO US.

SO THAT WAS QUITE A SHOCK TO SEE THAT.

SO PEOPLE ARE GAINING ACCESS TO THIS PLACE, ALBEIT NOT SO OFTEN.

BUT THE DIFFERENCE HERE IS FOR ME PERSONALLY TO GET MY HEAD AROUND THE VISUALS OF THIS, AS YOU LOOK AT THE SCENERY AND THE SUN IS GLOWING AROUND THE SKY 24/7.

SOME DAYS A BEAUTIFUL BLUE SKY, THE OCEAN, THE SEA ICE, THE WILDLIFE AND THE GLACIER.

AND REALIZING THAT THIS GLACIER DOES COME AND GO OVER TIME AND THE FACT THAT RIGHT NOW IT'S ON EDGE AND IT MAY QUICKLY RETREAT AND CHANGE THIS PART OF THE LANDSCAPE IN THE WORLD.

FOR ME IT WAS THIS IDEA OF CHANGE THAT MOST STRUCK ME.

HOW BEAUTIFUL IT IS.

AND INEVITABLY THAT IT WILL CHANGE AND IT WILL BE DIFFERENT.

>> CLIMATE SCIENTIST FROM NYU DAVID HOLLAND.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU, HARI.

> >> AND FINALLY, WE REMEMBER CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER JESSE JACKSON, WHO DIED AT THE AGE OF 84.

KNOWN FOR HIS ROUSING SPEECHES AND FIERCE ACTIVISM, JACKSON DEDICATED HIS LIFE'S WORK TO FIGHTING FOR EQUALITY AND JUSTICE FOR BLACK AMERICANS AND WAS A CLOSE AIDE TO THE LATE MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.

JACKSON ALSO TRANSFORMED U. S. POLITICS.

HIS RAINBOW COALITION AND ALLIANCE FORMED OF PEOPLE OF ALL RACIAL BACKGROUNDS, PAVED THE WAY FOR A MORE PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AND HE RAN TWICE FOR PRESIDENT, IN 1984 AND 1988, IN TWO GROUNDBREAKING CAMPAIGNS.

YOU MAY RECALL HIS ICONIC SPEECH AT THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION DURING HIS SECOND BID, CALLING ON AMERICANS TO FIND COMMON GROUND AS, QUOTE, THE ONLY TIME THAT WE WIN IS WHEN WE COME TOGETHER.

HERE'S A SNIPPET.

>> WHEREVER YOU ARE TONIGHT, YOU CAN MAKE IT.

HOLD YOUR HEAD HIGH.

STICK YOUR CHEST OUT.

YOU CAN MAKE IT.

IT GETS DARK SOMETIMES.

BUT THE MORNING COMES.

DON'T YOU SURRENDER!

SUFFERING BREEDS CHARACTER, CHARACTER BREEDS FAITH.

IN THE END FAITH WILL NOT DISAPPOINT.

YOU MUST NOT SURRENDER.

YOU MAY OR MAY NOT GET THERE, BUT JUST KNOW THAT YOU ARE QUALIFIED AND YOU HOLD ON AND HOLD OUT.

WE MUST NEVER SURRENDER.

AMERICA WILL GET BETTER AND BETTER.

KEEP HOPE ALIVE.

KEEP HOPE ALIVE!

KEEP HOPE ALIVE!

>> AND WHILE JACKSON'S BIDS WERE UNSUCCESSFUL, THEY BLAZED THE TRAIL FOR BARACK OBAMA'S PRESIDENTIAL VICTORY TWO DECADES LATER.

AS TRIBUTES POUR IN GRIEVING THE LOSS OF THE PEOPLE'S CHAMPION AND A MORAL VOICE, WE LEAVE YOU WITH A SHORT CLIP OF JACKSON RECITING THE POEM "I AM SOMEBODY" ON "SESAME STREET" IN THE '70s, INSTILLING THE MESSAGE OF UNWAVERING SELF-BELIEF FOR GENERATIONS.

>> I MAY BE SMALL.

>> I MAY BE SMALL.

>> BUT I AM.

>> BUT I AM.

>> SOMEBODY.

>> SOMEBODY.

>> I MAY MAKE A MISTAKE.

>> I MAY MAKE A MISTAKE.

>> BUT I AM.

>> BUT I AM.

>> SOMEBODY.

>> SOMEBODY.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

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>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.